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#749056 - 11/01/07 08:47 AM Re: Dual port intake 450r head W/Oval exhaust po [Re: DRG]
NFL Offline
Old Hand
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Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 794
Loc: morganhill
Originally Posted By: DRG
Originally Posted By: DSNUT
I was doing some thinking about the twin carb setup compared to the big single and why it works best. This is what i came up with. I am not an expert in physics so this explanation might have a few holes in it but here it is.....

It isn't just about volume (CFM). The single 50 might have more CFM than dual 38's. I haven't done the math on that.

What it is about is ramp rate and volumetric efficiency. Which setup do you think will be better suited to fill the cylinder more completely at low rpm?

Now which setup will be better suited to fill the cylinder more completely at high rpm?

The intake air is constantly starting and stopping as the vacuum signature of the piston dropping on the intake stroke gets blocked by the closed intake valves during combustion and the exhaust stroke.

Which carb setup will more easily pick up velocity and volume when the intake valves open again?

Here is the big one: Which carb setup has higher velocity? Intuitively the first response is to assume the smaller carbs will have more velocity but that is not true from a physics standpoint. In reality, velocity is volume over time. The smaller carbs are running about half the volume over a given time frame each as compared to the bigger carb so the smaller carbs each actually have much less velocity.

That means that the twin smaller carbs can move about the same CFM into the chamber but they can do it at a lower velocity with a much quicker pick-up from the vacuum signature. Knowing this begs the question which setup will have less turbulance and reversion in the intake ports? The setup with the least velocity will. Think about throwing a rubber ball at a concrete wall. The faster you throw it, the quicker and farther it bounces back. This is what happens to the air when the intake valves close.

This added efficiency and almost equal CFM allows you to maintain a higher VE at higher rpms.

The twin carbs will mean slower air measured at the carbs but they will provide faster and more focused air entering the cylinder.


Sorry for the book! smile Just some things to think about.


dood,.. no offense,....I'm not trying to be a deekhead, but you should delete your entire post... your physics is wacked!

the only thing of value was when you mentioned volumetric efficiency... concentrating on VE is what builds power,....from the dyno curves John has posted he should concentrate more on VE than the two carb setup imo...being 100% efficient is making more than he posted.. use his dyno post as an example and crunching a couple volumetric efficiency equations at various rpms, you'd be real shocked.

the greatest restriction in the entire head is the valve,... its not the port, and a single 43mm fcr carb will flow near 375cfm at 28"wc,.. more than enough flow...

velocity is dependent upon cross-sectional area.... the two smaller carb setup has 13% more cross sectional area than the one large carb setup. velocity is inversely proportional to cross-sectional area,... meaning the bigger the carb the lower the velocity through its venturi...

getting higher volumetric efficiencies, thus higher hp,is not dependent upon a two carb setup.... controlling reversion, ram filling, maximizing front to back flow ratios is of greater concern...

John,... again, I apologize to you if you think I'm against your efforts, cause I'm not,... I actually commend your R&D,... I understand that in order to be successful you must have failure,... my entire point is that I think you may need to 'reverse' engineer your numbers to find greater gains...

Good luck.
I know you not against me ! Thanks for all the imput!

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#749095 - 11/01/07 09:55 AM Re: Dual port intake 450r head W/Oval exhaust po [Re: DRG]
Headsupracing Online   icon_thumbs

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Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 12623
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Originally Posted By: DRG
Originally Posted By: DSNUT
I was doing some thinking about the twin carb setup compared to the big single and why it works best. This is what i came up with. I am not an expert in physics so this explanation might have a few holes in it but here it is.....

It isn't just about volume (CFM). The single 50 might have more CFM than dual 38's. I haven't done the math on that.

What it is about is ramp rate and volumetric efficiency. Which setup do you think will be better suited to fill the cylinder more completely at low rpm?

Now which setup will be better suited to fill the cylinder more completely at high rpm?

The intake air is constantly starting and stopping as the vacuum signature of the piston dropping on the intake stroke gets blocked by the closed intake valves during combustion and the exhaust stroke.

Which carb setup will more easily pick up velocity and volume when the intake valves open again?

Here is the big one: Which carb setup has higher velocity? Intuitively the first response is to assume the smaller carbs will have more velocity but that is not true from a physics standpoint. In reality, velocity is volume over time. The smaller carbs are running about half the volume over a given time frame each as compared to the bigger carb so the smaller carbs each actually have much less velocity.

That means that the twin smaller carbs can move about the same CFM into the chamber but they can do it at a lower velocity with a much quicker pick-up from the vacuum signature. Knowing this begs the question which setup will have less turbulance and reversion in the intake ports? The setup with the least velocity will. Think about throwing a rubber ball at a concrete wall. The faster you throw it, the quicker and farther it bounces back. This is what happens to the air when the intake valves close.

This added efficiency and almost equal CFM allows you to maintain a higher VE at higher rpms.

The twin carbs will mean slower air measured at the carbs but they will provide faster and more focused air entering the cylinder.


Sorry for the book! smile Just some things to think about.


dood,.. no offense,....I'm not trying to be a deekhead, but you should delete your entire post... your physics is wacked!



I knew that when I seen the who posted it...thats the reason why I didnt read any further than the first sentence.

DRG, thanks for clearing this up.
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#749322 - 11/01/07 04:28 PM Re: Dual port intake 450r head W/Oval exhaust po [Re: DSNUT]
MrHorsepower Offline
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Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 470
Loc: Buzzard Creek Kentucky
Originally Posted By: DSNUT
I disagree. wink smile


Me too.
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#749378 - 11/01/07 06:03 PM Re: Dual port intake 450r head W/Oval exhaust po [Re: DRG]
fiveOnick Offline
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Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 499
Loc: Manhattan, Kansas
Originally Posted By: DRG


velocity is dependent upon cross-sectional area.... the two smaller carb setup has 13% more cross sectional area than the one large carb setup. velocity is inversely proportional to cross-sectional area,... meaning the bigger the carb the lower the velocity through its venturi...



If the volumetric flow rate the engine so desires is constant, or it wants the same gulp with either carb setup only then would velocity be completely dependent upon area. However I think varying area would effect the gulp the engine desires leaving velocity dependent upon area and volumetric flow rate.


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#749967 - 11/02/07 06:46 PM Re: Dual port intake 450r head W/Oval exhaust po [Re: fiveOnick]
jamn Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 02/05/07
Posts: 156
Loc: california,united states
wow great post. LOL go for it,I hope it runs like a raped ape.I would just like to say I got one of the slowest heaviest engines and most difficult to make fast (predator) If I had the resources I would not let any trash talk on the net stop me from trying to go faster.

I'm no authority on physics or engine building but it is the most interesting thing to me.I did read the VE is about filling the cylinders and intake wise that should do it.I guess the trick would be to get the valves big enough and the cam lift and timing would be critical.here is what I read (wish I wrote .LOL)

"The actual amount of air the engine ingests compared to the theoretical maximum is called volumetric efficiency (VE). An engine operating at 100% VE is ingesting its' total displacement every two crankshaft revolutions.

There are many factors which determine the torque an engine can produce and the RPM at which the maximum torque occurs, but the fundamental determinant is the mass of air the engine can ingest into the cylinders, and there is a nearly-linear relationship between VE and maximum torque."

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#750085 - 11/02/07 10:26 PM Re: Dual port intake 450r head W/Oval exhaust po [Re: jamn]
DSNUT Offline
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Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 1318
Loc: Monmouth, OR
That is very good but the best happens after maximum torque. I will take the setup that holds the highest average torque out to the highest rpm over the motor that makes the highest peak torque any day.

Some engine setups make very good VE up to a moderate rpm then it drops off. The goal is to make the best VE as high in the rpm range as possible.
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#750130 - 11/03/07 06:59 AM Re: Dual port intake 450r head W/Oval exhaust port ! [Re: NFL]
DRG Offline
New Comer

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 45
Loc: MD
obtaining 100% VE, or near 100% VE is the easy part... it's getting over 100% VE is what is difficult without going forced induction.... couldn't be done without ram filling,... ram filling or 4th wave tuning is stored in the bowl area so that when the valve opens the cylinder is crammed with more than its volume,... ram filling.. no bouncing balls, just stored mass in the bowl area... the cylinder must be completely evacuated before it can fill... 4th wave tuning is pressure wave tuning, not mass tuning...

for those who can determine VE on this 471cc displacement, this is more than 100% VE...
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#750173 - 11/03/07 09:05 AM Re: Dual port intake 450r head W/Oval exhaust port ! [Re: DRG]
DSNUT Offline
Supa Fly
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Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 1318
Loc: Monmouth, OR
Obtaining 100% VE is easy at what RPM????

Do you have an induction setup on your Honda builds that makes 100% VE at 10k RPM? How about 8k RPM?

It is easy to reach 100% VE at the same RPM as peak torque occurs.........but that doesn't a fast bike make wink

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#750248 - 11/03/07 12:22 PM Re: Dual port intake 450r head W/Oval exhaust port ! [Re: NFL]
DRG Offline
New Comer

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 45
Loc: MD
the whole reason I posted the dyno I did was not to boast or brag in someone else thread, but to ILLUSTRATE that obtaining over 100% VE at 9500 was done on this particular build...

pulling over 100% VE at peak hp isn't only a function of intake tuning but also scavenging...

this was a 471cc build... it should be easy enough to calculate the effective VE on this build... wink

talking fast by what measure? fast in four-stroke builds? fast against two-strokes? or fast like taking this build against two strokes? this build does 6.3sec in 500 dirt, 12.2 in the 1/4mile,... is this fast enough?


Edited by DRG (11/03/07 12:27 PM)
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#750263 - 11/03/07 01:39 PM Re: Dual port intake 450r head W/Oval exhaust port ! [Re: DRG]
DSNUT Offline
Supa Fly
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Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 1318
Loc: Monmouth, OR
So this build is making 100% VE at 9500 rpm? Why?

What does the bike run in 300' just out of curiosity? How much does it weigh?

I am certainly not debating you.....I am asking question so i can better understand where you are coming from. wink

I have seen the dyno results when testing dual intake ports with twin carbs as compared to a large single carb on the same build so i know where I stand. I just want to understand your point better.

Scavaging is important but my comments assume exceptional exhaust design in both scenarios since that was present in the testing.
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