OK.....from a LOCAL perspective.....PLEASE, can we get some track owners and/or promoters in on this discussion too,(he says with his hands folded neatly together in a moment of reflection), AND try to keep it civil and avoid personal attacks:
REMEMBER it is hard to show emotion on the keyboard...

Alright....change of plans....I have been banging my head against the desk for the last 3 hours trying to figure out classes from a local level, and trying to have the classes carry over into Regional and then the National level....and where that leads me to is....I NEED THE NATIONAL CLASSES FIRST!!!!... ...and we all already know we don't want me figuring out the national classes by myself.....so..... .....lol

How about this for a starting point:

National Championship Points Series, REGIONAL Class Possibilities?

Pro Bracket
(22) Pro 1 Bracket Race 4.49 and Faster
(23) Pro 2 Bracket Race 4.50 and Slower
Heads Up
(3) 0-370cc 2-Stroke & 0-505cc 4-Stroke Singles…Limited...OEM Frame
(4) 0-370cc Twin, 0-475cc 2-Stroke, 0-730cc 4 Stroke…Limited…OEM Frame
(6) Open cc 2 & 4 Strokes Limited
(28) Open CC 2 & 4 Stroke Unlimited Single
(7) 0-475cc Twin Limited
(8) 0-650cc Twin Limited Spread Bores Allowed
(9) 0-775cc Twin Limited
(29) 0-650cc Unlimited Twin Spread Bores Allowed
(31) 0-825cc Unlimited Twin Spread Bores Allowed
(13) 0-1325cc Open Cylinder Limited Spread Bores Allowed
(36) Open Cylinder & Open CC Unlimited Spread Bores Allowed


Let's try this, if you are a 4-stroke single rider, look at the classes you will be running in....don't worry about the Banshee classes, if you are a twin or triple rider, look at your class, and let's see if we can get any closer that way.......OK...let the suggestions begin.

PS....I am going to ask Charlie to make me a Moderator in this thread so I may edit, shorten, or maybe even remove some posts if they get repetitive, or start leading us down a different road....CONCENTRATE....EVERYBODY.....LOCAL and REGIONAL level....lol

I feel like there needs to be the same break in cc sizes for any frame in the single classes as there is in the OEM frame classes. As well as the same break in unlimited.

In otherwords, my 501 cc oem framed Honda will lose as bad to my 804 cc OEM framed Raptor as my rigid framed 556cc Honda will lose to my 815cc rigid Raptor.

This is my suggestion for single classes based upon what I know as a 4 stroke builder and racer. I will use the 1.65 ratio to come up with a 2 stroke cc (just so you know how I got that number if its weird). This cc break down pretty much makes it so that 450's race 450's and Raptor/DS's race Raptor/DS's. Yeah you can build a 651cc Honda from a 450, but its not that practical, and I guess you could de-stroke a DS650 to a 640, but again, I don't see it as practical either.

I think you need to have 6 single classes if we want to accomidate OEM frames.
Currently we have limited looking like this, using 3 classes:
3) 0-370cc 2-Stroke & 0-505cc 4-Stroke Singles…Limited...OEM Frame
(4) 0-370cc Twin, 0-475cc 2-Stroke, 0-730cc 4 Stroke…Limited…OEM Frame
(6) Open cc 2 & 4 Strokes Limited
I suggest:
(3)0-650 4 stroke 0-400cc 2 stroke OEM frame single and under 370cc 2 stroke twin
(4)651-open 4 stroke / 401-open 2 stroke OEM frame single
(?)0-650 4 stroke 0-400cc 2 stroke any frame single
(?)651-open 4 stroke / 401-open 2 stroke any frame single

As for the unlimited I suggest the following.
(?)0-650 4 stroke 0-400cc 2 stroke any frame single Unlimited
(?)651-open 4 stroke / 401-open 2 stroke any frame single Unlimited

I know its three more classes than you suggested, but in a perfect world.....

Our stable would currently allow us to field 4 of our current bikes, that were either built for the Four Stroke Association Series and the PSDRA without any changes to them, and on paper be competitive, so I feel good about those classes and I feel that others will as well.

My suggestion is to make the Limited and Unlimited classes exactly the same so folks can swap carbs or unbolt the bottle and race in both.

Single cylinder Limited:
0-650cc 4 stroke and 0-370cc 2 stroke OEM frame

651cc-open 4 stroke and 370cc-open 2 stroke OEM frame

0-650c 4 stroke and 0-370cc 2 stroke any frame

651c-open 4 stroke and 370cc-open 2 stroke any frame

Single cylinder Unlimited:
0-650cc 4 stroke and 0-370cc 2 stroke OEM frame

651cc-open 4 stroke and 370cc-open 2 stroke OEM frame

0-650c 4 stroke and 0-370cc 2 stroke any frame

651c-open 4 stroke and 370cc-open 2 stroke any frame


This class structure will cover 95% of the 4 strokes racing today and not cause any changes to the 2 stroke singles currently racing at PS events.

OK....I've tried to quote and respond to each of you, but every time I have tried I end up at the same place......too many classes, when we try to make it fair for everyone!

My Class #(3) was intended to be a starter class....we were told last year that there needs to be a place that "lightly modded" 4 strokes can run....after nearly a month of discussion, 505cc was arrived at because it let most of the small built bikes have a place to run. Bikes with a slight overbore, a cam and a pipe. If we raise the 4-stroke limit on Class(3) to 650cc there is no way a lightly modded 450 can run with the 650....?
Tell me how fast a 650cc TRX or YFZ is with an OEM frame....and then tell me how fast a 660cc Raptor is with an OEM Frame.....won't they be very close?...(or the fully modded TRX be the faster?)

I have seen "small block" bikes run some pretty good numbers at some of these events...I know there are some 650's that will walk completely away from a "lightly modded" 450, and put a bunch of "big blocks" on the trailer.

It is my understanding that Eric has put an OEM Frame "big block" into the 3.9's....so PLEASE tell me why we need to allow a 1000cc PLUS displacement bike run in an OEM Class?

I'm REALLY not trying to be a smart a......I just don't see why an OEM Frame is that big of a deal...the times would seem to say otherwise.

Two reasons, it will attract more 4 stroke racers and the OEM chassis machines run a couple of tenths slower than the drag chassis machines.

A drag chassis big block single runs 3.7s and an OEM chassis big block single runs 3.9s. At the National level, it's a wasted effort to enter an OEM chassis in a drag chassis class, the drag chassis' better 60' times can't be made up on the big end with the same motor in each chassis. The small blocks will run "close" but again, 2/10s difference isn't close enough to put them in the same class.

This is fundamentally no different than the spreadbore vs. non-spreadbore discussion. Even though not everyone understands/cares, it matters to them and classes are built to accomodate them. You may not understand/agree with the way the 4 stroke folks have organized but it doesn't have to make sense to you, it already matters to them. Look at the FSC hill shooting classes and the 300' classes used at Outlaw in Alabama, OEM vs. drag chassis is an integral part of the 4 stroke drag world.

Too many classes is just not an acceptable answer when the 4 strokes are the only ones getting short changed. Dump the pit bike, UTV, bracket, index, and kid's classes before telling us there isn't enough room for decent 4 stroke heads-up classes.

I can understand getting rid of the utv's/pit bike races, kid's class is questionable. If you dump the bracket and index classes it isn't worth going and trying to be fastest on the planet, you won't have much money in the pot to pay the heads up classes, it's not about just the money, but, it is nice knowing it can help pay for a trip. just my opinion.

I second that....

why not 0 to 475 2stroke...with 0 to 650 4stroke...that is the starting 2 stroke class....

In class 4, why not go 0-400 twin, 0-475 single and 0-650 4stroke. How do the big 4strokes stack up against the up to 400 twins? Oem frames of course.

I don't think mixing singles and twins is a good idea. The other classes are broken out by number of cylinders even though some of them run similar times. That approach could get messy if small triples had to run against big twins, big triples against small 4 bangers, etc. Matching machines by similar times instead of cc or cylinders is more of an index class structure.

As far as your question about 0-370cc vs. 0-475cc 2 stroke single, I just used the already established PS cc break for single cylinder 2 strokes. Not being a 2 stroke guy, I assumed that cc break was what the 2 stroke singles wanted.