lets see if we can kick start Planetsand... can anyone tell me what this is and what it does??

All Ideas and comments are welcome lets see if we can launch a good thread

Looks like some type of clutch or drive mechanism.lol

appears to be a time machine... or some sort of lockup clutch but trying to figure out how it works? hmmmm

Lock up with a clutch?

calvins new slipper clutch

kinda looks like a sled primary and lock up for a banshee got it on..

lol hint, its hydraulic and able to be metered

i know , but only because i was told what it was,lol, the clutch and lockup comments are inline, i can`t explain on what in it or how it works, maybe revolutionize another acpect of tuning another area of the bike

a Slider Clutch maybe

Hydraulic clutch lock out metered to keep a constant pressure at a designated rpm. Therefore always consistent on the g-force pulling against the rider never varying on 60's,rt's, or et's resulting in the ultimate bracket racing machine. Oh yeah it also makes a kickass latte.

thats one of wilburns multi stage clutch

frank, as far as I am concerned, it is fine to be brought out into the "daylight". Tim knew it was ok to start this thread before he posted, I think it is a great idea to TRY AND LIVEN THIS PLACE UP....lol


Maybe we can get a thread going about what we think we want from a clutch, (and we could even include the "belt slipper" guys...lol). I am not saying this is the "end-all-be-all" clutch, but maybe if we bring it's workings out into the open, it will allow us to get closer to where we want to be.

belt slipper...

was I even close

thats one of wilburns(no) multi(yes) stage(yes) clutch(no)

atleast I was 1/4 right

Here is a little more info to digest before we start trying to figure out "if" we need something like this.

pics are people who cant read....show me somthing with words on it calvin..

hows this

It appears that it doesn't require discs, yes ..no..

Yes, they are in their "normal position", I just didn't include them in that file....sorry....

i agree mr calvin, there are many areas to tweak and tune from and with the bigger motors have made other issues raise their heads, i feel we are steadly striving to maxmize the most out of everything to get the most power and it to the ground we can, getting the right amount of slippage off line and still have enough holding force at other end and able to keep clutches in good service is and where this might help, i can mentally understand but can`t verbally explain or express technically info, odell`s wording went so far over my head, i`m going to relook at that girly post, video again, that i can understand,lol, but i will keep checking in on this to understand some more

maybe if 1 of these could be put on a motor and using a dyno be able to see where and how much, slippage, spring pressure and lockout arm weight can have a effect on powerband, i know a few snomo guys that use a computer data from a print out , graph to adjust weights to make power band, rpm, shift points work together to get best et`s, my seat of the pants feel, usually takes several passes to get just 1 area tested out and more weeks to work alittle at a time to either better bike or start over,it a hard balance to achieve

A CLUTCH DYNO CALVIN!!! LOL

already working on that Tim, (and frank

Interesting...a lockup with weights backed up with the consistency of a hydraulic pressure? yes, no?

I thought it was a Flux Capacitor...if Tim keeps going faster and faster, he'll go back in time eventually...:)

with the sotra diff stages of the spring pressure, the hydralicics and lockup weight it can be like a cushioning effect on drive train and not put so much shock on it at 1 time, sorta spread it out thru the powerband and track distance, that 1 diff i see between the snomo`s and chain drive types

Looks like my MTC Multi Stage Clutch to me but does not have the tower springs tho.I want to know more about this setup Tim and Calvin.

There are several different types of "lockup" clutches in use in the sand and asphalt drag applications at present, this is more of an "added to" existing designs rather than another design.....but I truely do feel it will allow us to make a step toward more new clutch development.

We can "come back to" the belt slipper clutch/gear configurations a little later in the thread, but for now, let's concentrate on the clutch disc, gear change transmission applications.

The main lockup clutch designs that I am aware of for our drag ATV and drag bike shifter type applications, are lockups driven off the inner hub, (transmission input shaft designs), and lockups which are driven directly off the clutch basket itself.

In my opinion each of these designs have both good and bad aspects to their designs for use in our applications, but I feel the sand and the asphalt need different designs because they require different things from a clutch.

As a basic description of the timeloc system, on the higher hp engines we generally need to add more weight to the lockup arms to assure full clutch engagement at the high speed end of the track, but when we do that, the extra weight on the arms will add clamping force to the clutch pack at initial engagement, creating a problem by not allowing the clutch to slip at the starting line. Since the most common lockup is driven from the inner hub, as soon as the clutch engages it spins the rear tires, which causes the input shaft to spin faster....which applies more pressure to the lockup arms....which applies more clamping force, spinning the tires faster, we see this as "blowing the tires off of the bike".

The main objective of the TimeLoc system is to hydralically "lock" the weighted arms in the unclamped position for a period of time, until the bike has had enough time to begin the pass, and has gotten to a speed which will accept the additional clamping force of the weighted arms without spinning the rear tires. The "delay time" is adjustable by changing a jet, which allows the trapped fluid to escape the locking chamber at a different speed, giving us the ability to lock the clutch sooner with a large jet size, or delay the full engagement longer by using a smaller jet.

Great, now we gotta jet our clutches too??


J/K...
Very interesting design, looking forward to it being put into use for sand/dirt.

The first prototypes being tested now are based upon the Mattoon clutch design, and they are used in conjunction with his locker plate and arms. The second design will be for the stock Banshee clutch setups, (and some of the lockup designs that are used on that basket and hub design). I have a feeling the large 4-stroke singles may see as much or more benefit from delaying the extra clamping force generated by the weighted arms, (or slingshot balls), so I am sure there will be designs for several other engine designs.

I have spoken with a few people with clutch designs for the asphalt drag side of our spoort, and feel sure the ability to delay the initial shock of the added clamping force based on time will also help in that side of the sport. Even with the 2nd generation of slider clutches that have just became available, the amount of clamping force is tied to spring pressure, weight of the centrifical arms, and rpm's.....but as far as our present clutch designs go, the clutch doesn't know whether the transmission is in first or fifth gear.....and I believe the demands put upon the clutch is different for first gear and for high gear.

That would be awesome for asphalt.Right now most of us use a stock spring(for slip) and adjust the weights to bring the clutch in when we need it.This would drop 60 ft. times even more.

Right now, what we are doing is putting enough tire on our bikes to get a 60 foot time and we are hurting both parts and MPH, when we should be only running enough tire to keep it hooked up in the higher gears, by slipping the clutch at the line just enough to roll the tire out we can both, use the right tire for the pass and deaden the load on parts, Billet Trannies for one

We have come really far in the past 5 years with the Engines that now its time to catch everything else up to it, we have more than doubled torque output but our 60 foots haven't really changed. All of our torque is flying out the back of our bikes lol and we all know what tire spin will do to an over-ride. It would be nice to roll less tire out with only a few tire rotations in the length of the bike and also pick up a huge chunk in 60 foot and still pull high mph

What I hadn't really sit down and thought about before starting on this clutch project is, since the most common lockups for sand are based on the inner hub design, we get no centrifugal locking force while we are first engaging the clutch, but by the time we have shifted the first time we have already achieved maximum centrifugal clamping pressure, on even the best runs we have ever made.

Due to the fact that the lockup arms are mounted to the input shaft of the transmission, once the inner hub and outer basket have achieved a 1 to 1 rotating speed, the input shaft doesn't know if the transmission is in first or the highest gear, all it knows is that it is rotating at the maximum rpm that it will ever achieve, so the arms are getting thrown outward just as hard in first as fifth. Now add in the fact that it is so hard to come up with EXACTLY the correct tire and gearing combination for the track surface every time we make a pass, and you have a perfect opportunity to spin your tires instead of hook them up…..and as soon as you spin the tires the clutch locks harder, so in some cases we are reaching maximum clamping pressure before the rear wheels ever reach the staging light beams!

The clutch systems based on mounting the locker arms to the basket instead of the hub also have their potential flaws, and has IMO proven to be of more use in the asphalt applications than in the sand, but even on the asphalt, it is my opinion they are somewhat lacking in what we really want the clutch to do.

If you launch your bike with a stutter-box, you have the ability to set the staging rpm to be just below the engagement rpm, but then you are launching the bike at less than the “ideal” rpm, because we are not launching at the rpm where we achieve top horsepower. Some people would say we need to launch at the rpm where we achieve max torque, and I will not say they are incorrect, but it would seem that if we launched at the rpm where max hp is developed we would be capable of “pulling more tire” on the starting line, which should launch us at a faster rate.

I am not saying I have the answers, I am not sure we even know the right questions that need to be answered yet, but please, let’s thy to leave the discussions open enough to allow opinions and questions to be kicked out there without anyone feeling that they will get fed upon by people waiting in ambush.

If someone sees flaws in my direction, please kick them out there.

So will the 8 plate matoon clutch covers have to be modified to accept the extra hardware that comes with this Time-loc set up?

yes or Kieth is making covers that will go on it right now

I would like to have a slider clutch for my bike simply because it would be easier on the transmission and driveline (minus the clutch discs). Although the PSM guys use them for different reasons than us, I think we could use their capabilities. The PSM guys make 320HP and have an 8" wide tire so they use them to not overpower the tire, I think we can buy enough tire to get ample traction for our power levels but tend to break parts when we do. I think if we could lock the clutch up later we could still 60ft well and not break as many parts doing it. One thing we don't have (at least I don't know of it) is the monitoring software and capability to monitor what a slider is actually doing for us on the track, you would need to be able to log engine RPM vs transmission RPM to really know what you were doing. BTW, the PSM guys never fully lockup their driveline, there is always at least 2% slippage.

digatron has gauges that monitor and graph engine and jackshaft rpms. There should be a way to rig up the sensor on a transmission shaft so you could see just what you are looking for throughout the pass. I believe it would be more helpful on the asphalt as there is less tire spin than in dirt/send

now we are talkin , you guys are all over this

Digitron sells a "jackshaft" speed monitoring kit with some of their units. I put one on the laydown. It uses 4 equally spaced strong magnets epoxied into 1/16" x 1/4" holes drilled into the axle and a sensor with 1/8" clearance to the magnets. I will use it to monitor engine rpm vs. axle rpm so I know what the clutch is doing, something like that could work to help tune this new clutch.

The full meal deal EGT/tach/temp/pressure/jackshaft monitoring unit from Digitron is less than a $750 with all the probes and if you only want jackshaft (axle) speed, they make cheaper units for use with Jr Dragsters.

would the rear end[axle] be included in the monitoring...?

That's how I have it set up on my laydown, drilled 4 tiny holes in the aluminum axle and have the sensor mounted to the frame. On a JJ&A axle in a quad, you wouldn't even need to drill the axle, the magnets are small enough to epoxy into the brake or sprocket spacer. The sensor is also very small, about 1/2" in diameter and 2" long not including the adjustable mounting plate.

http://www.exhaustgas.com/ProductDetail....uID=&RepID=

And therein lies one of the "problems" with the slider clutch both for our application, and for the asphalt guys. If you add enough weight to the arms on a slider to fully engage the clutch on the big end, the additional weight on the arms will try to throw the arms out at a lower rpm...so you need to add more dynamic spring tension to keep them from adding to much clamping force to the launch....and by adding more dynamic tension which holds the lockers back, you have taken more clamping force away from the high rpm lockers. It is somewhat of a catch-22 situation.

The newer "GenII" multi-stage design from MTC, does use static spring pressure to assist with the initial engagement, which will also give you more clamping force at higher rpm's....but again, as with the inner hub designs, if you spin your tire(s), it applies more clamping force to the clutch pack, which in some cases forces the tire to spin harder.

There are some advantages to the slider designs, but there are also some disadvantages....IMO......

I believe an optical sensor through the left side of the cases, with a reflector mounted to the side of our closest gear which is running on splines with the transmission input shaft, would give us the amount of clutch slippage present, when compared to the engine rpm, (calculated through the primary drive ratio), or a sensor could be placed on the outer clutch basket and not require the calculations.

I think Tim hit the nail on the head with running so much paddle to not blow them off and 60 foot good, then drag them down on the big end....both on ET and MPH.

Great discussion.

this is a great solution too a big problem !!

uh do these fit on billet motors???

Not a problem.

........lol

Seriously, they will be available to all when the testing is complete, where they end up would be very hard to control, all we could possibly do is to include an exploding "dye packet" that would enable the rest of the world to know if you had one or not....lol

well i have to applaud you and tim for tackling this there are several things i like, (1) the biggest for me is that in a crappy economy where most wont be building new anyway right now what better time to go deeper into what we already have and perfect it. I think there is alot left to achieve on some of the big twins and trppiles out there with the HP #'s they make i would think the ET's would reflect a lil better than they do compared to a lil motor.. Anyway keep up the research this will def better our sport..

Looks good Calvin.

Not sure why the billet guys are even interested. I am sure those 12p extremes don't pull their motors down THAT much...

i love it i need two and hurry up with the testing looking good guys

wouldn't it be easier to have a multi staged clutch lever or cable system where your enitial release of the lever only goes to 1/4 engaged (adjustable) then slowly over comes a counter spring or hydrolic to fully engage?
my thought is it would be more easily adjusted, it would be outside the case and it would work with what ever clutch you already have.

we have found that you loose to much reaction time with a setup like that, this setup will eventually have an adjustment on it that will literally take just seconds to adjust. nit to mention most heavily weighted lockup will stretch a cable

We have tried SEVERAL different ways to do what this piece does over the last 3 years or so, (about the time the Caracals started breaking parts...lol). Several of the designs involved "slowing down" the engagement externally, either with an addition to the clutch lever area, the cable, we built air and oil delayed systems that mounted to the clutch "arm", (where the cable attaches to the case), we even had a system in the works that changed the "clutch push-rod and pancake bearing" area into a hydraulic cylinder which could be used to control the clutch engagement.

The "short" answer to your question is, yes, it would be easier to build a system which "slowed down" the engagement speed from the outside.....BUT...it doesn't do the same thing.

If you attempt to control the engagement before the springs which push the top-hat, (pressure plate), to the engaged position, what you are doing is slowing down your reaction time as well as slowing down the clutch engagement. If you slow down the speed that the pancake bearing "allows" the top-hat to engage, BEFORE the springs can force the engagement...IN ANY WAY THAT WE TRIED, you WILL effect your reaction time. If you can picture the process exaggerated, try to picture a device which slowed the engagement to a 5 second process.....for the first 1 or 2 seconds after releasing the clutch lever, the bike would just sit there until the device had allowed the springs to push the top-hat in enough to start moving the bike.......so your reaction time would be after it had started to move and crossed the beams.

What the TimeLoc system does is let the springs engage the clutch as soon as the clutch lever is released, but it delays the added clamping force which is generated as soon as the inner hub starts to rotate, until the hydraulic system has allowed the fluid to transfer back out of the "locking chamber"

Would a two piece pressure plate work? Off the line it only engages half of the clutch plates, after you role a few feet the other half engage.

lol ssshhhhhhh

for circle track cars they made somthing called the shocker that conected to the drive shaft. it had rubber blocks you could add or remove. it was designed to absorb that enitial shock so you wouldn't spin the tires coming out of the corner when hit the gas.I could see something like that in between the gear and the basket but that would not be easy to adjust

or on the axle, there is plenty of room on center drives for something like that

I AM READY FOR ONE!!!!! I can see where this will be a big help to compensate for wet to dry track conditions and be able to set the tune on the carbs for the big end and not just 60ft. to over come a heavy track weather it be dirt or asphalt. Hmmm sounds like a huge solution to a big problem......

i deffinatly think this a major step in the right direction but all the clutch management systems i've seen that work efficiently all work off engine rpm not transmission speed i still think the lock up needs to run off the clutch basket that way you can get a little slip on the gear change also it would be easier on parts and produce quicker ets

we agree with that 100% and are working on that. one of the problems that is there is you have to regulate engine RPMs at launch and trying to find the room for what we need to accommodate the parts needed, all of the setups out there are for asphalt and tire slip or spin is not an issue where it is for us and our mechanism needs to be metered differently than spring pressure

on a buddy of mines promod car it uses a air cylinder to hold the lock up clutch from locking up until a certain time or gear and also has different bleed off jets i know if it locks it up to early it shakes and smokes the tires instantly i think once someone starts using a data logger like a race pak where you can learn by looking at clutch to engine rpm slippage and rear axle speed along with the g-meter reading you could get it all to work i know they watch drive shaft speed alot on the cars if its to fast i wont go down the track and blow the tires off so they slip the clutch to slow it down i've been looking to put a racepak on my bike but just haven't broke loose of the extra money to do it if anybody is interested in one my buddy is a dealer for them and good friends with roger their tech guy just get ahold of me

here is the clutch style i think we need

We have been talking with MTC, and there are some VERY good aspects to the slider, and the GenII clutches that they build, but there are also some things that the slider style clutches do that, "in my opinion", we don't want to have happen, (both in the sand and on the asphalt). As I said earlier, both the inner hub mounted lockups, and the basket mounted lockups have advantages and drawbacks.....we may need to "start a list" of the pros and cons to both systems, (something that I have already done during the development stage on the TimeLoc....but I do know there is a lot of knowledge to glean from the members on this board), maybe we need to get into the mechanics of what we want in a thread.

When I first started this thread, I started the discussion in the 2-stroke section.....maybe I need to move it, or start a new thread in a section to get some of "the dark side" guys involved too....lol

i also don't like the slider style clutch but do like the gen 2 design i just think using the clutch hub style kinda defeats the purpose were looking for

In some instances, I would agree with you.....but with the "basket based lockup system" we are solely relying on the rpm of the engine to determine how much lockup pressure we have available, (and we will be at max rpm several times while going down the track....MANY MORE times if we lose traction while making the run....the tire spins, causing the rpm to rise, causing the lockup arms to put more pressure to the clutch pack...causing the tire to spin more...."repeat cycle"....lol).

If you think it, one of the main differences is the "reaction time" required to let each system engage/disengage/re-engage as it goes down the track. The basket based systems get their clamping force DIRECTLY from the engine rpm.....while the Inner-Hub based systems get their clamping force from the speed of the inner hub, (and therefore the input shaft)...which has a "slower reacting speed" when compared to the basket. Once we have achieved 1 to 1 speed ratio between the inner hub and the basket, we should have maximum centrifugal clamping pressure unless the engine rpm drops when we shift to the next higher gear, (basically the same on both systems), but with the basket based systems the rpm loss for whatever reason will cause an IMMEDIATE loss of clamping force, while the rpm of the inner hub will not "react" as quickly to the rpm of the engine in part because the input shaft is trying to "continue" turning at it's maximum rpm...it will slow down but I do not believe it "reacts" as quickly. The rapid reaction speed of the basket based systems may not be an undesirable reaction for the clutch, as it is a form of "bog protection" in a roundabout way. When going through the first few gears that may be a good thing, but I feel the last shift will be where the most rpm losses will occur...at that point, we are losing our clamping force which allows the engine to recover very quickly to "try" to re-engage the clutch pressure.....BUT, isn't that the spot on the track that we are attempting to gear the bike so it DOES pull down on the rpm's? It would seem that if we can shift into the highest gear to pull us the rest of the way down the track WITHOUT losing any traction to wheel spinning, OR without losing mph because our clutch is slipping, this would be the most desirable result, (remember that our engine rpm is lowest at that point on the track).

With the basket based systems available at present, we can not launch at the rpm that the track requires....only at the launch rpm that we have previously decided to be ideal. If we add more lockup arm weight, (with the slider/GenII style), the "stall speed" is effected, so we must add more dynamic spring tension to get the stall speed back to our estimated "ideal" rpm to launch....The problem with that process is now we have increased the dynamic spring tension on that weighted arm which is "holding back" the arm...so in effect, we have taken away clamping force gained by adding the weight to that arm....so...did we really gain anything?

you type alot..no mistakes either..

Second paragraph ,fourth word should be "about"
lol sorry I had to. But it was close.

maybe two sets of lock up arms with the second set that can be set to come in at a certain time,gear change, or after the first set is lockedup could be an option i just dont think on some of these bigger motors sping pressure will be enough on a good track with out some lock up pressure down low i also think mattoon needs to make an inner hub with six posts like the banshee one just seems like it would be stronger and also easier to tune with six springs and six lockup arms i've had a lock up break one with six posts so i can immagine with the extra weight of this new clutch there may be issues with five

Mattoon doesn't make the 5 lug hub, Suzuki does, so he has his hands tied a bit there

Tim you explained this setup to me this weekend and the more i think about it the more it makes sense. Once all the testing gets done i believe all bikes that have one will benefit no matter what size motor they put it on.

i know its a suzuki part but i don't understand why he wont build one himself with six lugs so it will use all banshee cluch parts and lockups i have his basket with a 10 plate innerhub on mine but the guy who built my original basket and hub don't build them anymore

thats more along the lines i'm thinking but i think it needs more lock up fingers

You would be suprised how much power this can really hold.

I know of drivers who have picked up from 7mph on trap speed in 300ft, and as much as 12mph on 1/8 mile with no other changes than by adding weight to insure better lockup on the big end. IMO the problem with the "conventional" designs is if we add weight to the gain on the lockup pressure on the big end, it engages to aggresively in the first 60'.

On the systems that are based on "basket" rpm, if you add more weight to gain engagement, you are adding engagement pressure EVERY TIME the engine rpm increases, (either 3 or 4 times during the run after each shift), and when adding weight to those systems you will find it changes your "stall rpm"....so you will need to add dynamic spring tension to help delay the engagement rpm back to where it was before you added the weight.

You don't really need to go to a basket based system to benefit from delayed engegement due to dynamic spring tension, small springs can, (and have) been added to inner hub based systems to delay the "initial" lockup force from being applied as soon as hub rotation begins.....but there is that nasty "add weight so you need to add spring to overcome the weight" problem again.

I have spent hundreds of hours on the computer cad programs trying to come up with better ways to aghieve our goals.....I am NOT saying I have come up with the best mousetrap.....I just haven't been able to come up with anything that gets us closer to where we need to be ......YET....lol

We have been working with several different lockup manufacturers to try and include the TimeLoc system into their clutch designs. Kevin, (gpracerx) is looking to build a TimeLoc version of his Slingshot clutch, I have a MTC GenII lockup on my drafting table right now trying to adapt the hydrualic delay system into that design, (even trying to include an engagement "needle" to allow stall rpm to be increased to an rpm which is actually above the engagement rpm for that set of arms....(this would allow you to come out of the hole at an rpm which is closer to the peak power rpm of the engine, without having the clutch engage until the rider releases the clutch handle)

That is a MAJOR concern that I have with the Basket based systems, what if you have a "runaway", (like Donnie had on two runs 2 yars ago at the FOTP race)....if the clutch lever cannot overcome the lockup weight, how can we disengage the clutch at shut down with a stuck throttle?

Not doubting what you are saying, but are you sure it will allow the clutch to disengage at wide open throttle? All of the basket based lockups that I have seen will "allow" disengegement at WOT...but our hand strength wouldn't overcome the weight pressure.

Hello Planet Sand members,i just came upon this post and i would like to say the timeloc clutch design is a great advancement in the clutch technology i have seen the atv industry use in many years.

until now i was unaware that anyone else was interested in bringing state of the art clutch technology into the ATV industry besides ourselves.

innovation is good for everyone and i am sure both clutches will have there pros,cons in there respective applications.

however my main purpose is to make a statement on the runaway bike question and i beleive that in this situation a kill switch should be used as a fail safe to kill the ignition,regardless of whether the clutch can or cannot disengage the transmission.

Hello Tim, it is great to see new members posting, glad you found us here on PS, and welcome to our madhouse.....lol




I agree 100%, I would also like to see mandatory tech inspections required on all NOS bikes to include a normally closed solinoid in the nitrous system, which is tied directly to the kill switch so when the kill switch is pulled it would shut off the nitrous supply from the bottle. Everyone would like to believe we can think clearly under pressure, but it takes a VERY cool head to think about turning off the NOS bottle when your throttle is stuck wide open.....and that is assuming we mounted the nos bottle in a position that the rider could reach it while trying to control a runaway bike....lol

Maybe as a challenge we, (as manufacturers), need to try and develop a new "emergency shut-down system" which not only kills the ignition, but it also could shut off the fuel, shut of the nos flow, and maybe even close the air supply, whenever the deadman switch is pulled, or the kill switch is flipped.

Anyway.....(sorry about the rant....lol).....glad to see you feel there may be a place for a non-mechanical delay system in our clutches, if you want to talk about incorporating the system into your clutch, feel free to call if I can help. It may be a fairly easy modification to include the possibility of the "addition" of the TimeLoc to your present setup.

In working with Keith Mattoon, I understand he is going to "build-in" the seal plate with his next production of standard lockups, so the lockup can be used without the Timeloc parts, or the TimeLoc pieces can be added to his standard lockup when the customer sees a need for the system.

that will be great.

thanks for the warm welcome

I had mentioned this in an earlier reply and thought I would post a picture of the design I was talking about, I believe this particular design was built by Gann Custom Lockup, there are some designs that use a spring for each arm which would allow a certain amount of "multi-stage" adjustment

good to see some activity here ... On the kill switch, its all good on paper but at stuck WOT I doubt the kill switch will help on a methanol engine but that is another topic I haven't had time to read the new posts over yet but I will

He's refering to so much heat being built into the engine, that it will actually "diesel" if it were to run into a lean condition and hang. The spark plug acting like a glow plug.

Not the "pucker factor" and not thinking about pulling the lanyard.

On the big end, the only way to kill a motor is to cut the air and/or fuel supply going to the engine if it is running extremely lean. example, left crank seal going out for some odd reason. etc.

That picture is the most interesting I've seen yet...hmmm...

yep,they just dont need an ignition then... now that I think about it, I dont think anyone would let go of a 250 hp twin at wot and pull a lanyard either you would need some world class Butt cheeks and a good easy to clean seat lol


I love those adjustable springs, I wish we could have a way to have a variable primary spring pressure setup that adds primary spring pressure with the lockup phase. one of the problems with a big motor is actually recovering the clutch when it is slipping, it whats to keep on slipping lol

So i have tested this set-up at a couple of tracks, here is my opinion.
I very much like the way it feels it is way smoother off the line which i feel will help with some part failure(trannies?), however i believe the weight of the piece is too much for the stock inner hub, i know i destryoed one at AVI. Only thing im not sure of on the big bikes if we can actually get it to recover in a resonable amount of time.
I understand part failure will happen and that is part of testing im not complaining overall i like it so-far.

Thanks for the feedback Jade, I know at the track there is some hesitation in "sharing" any info but this is the first I had heard about ANY breaking of parts concerning the clutches.
While it would have been nice to see the broken part to try to figure out what happened, I guess I will need to try to duplicate the problem to see what happened.
Since we are discussing it here, a couple of questions if you don't mind.

Did you change to longer bolts on the 6mm bolts which hold the Timeloc unit onto the inner hub, or did you use the same ones that you already had used before? The reason that I asked is because we had tried to use the same bolts originally, and discovered they did have enough threads into the hub to hold, but the shorter bolts made it extremely hard to install when trying to overcome the spring pressure. Unless the person installing was extremely careful when bolting it onto the hub, it puts a tremendous side load on the posts which could easily break the spring posts.

Did/Do you use an electric impact to install the spring bolts, which holds the Timeloc in place?

When installing the unit, did you shim the TimeLoc to insure that it had at least .012-.015 clearance when the clutch was completely pulled in? If clearance is not present, extra pressure can be put on the spring bosses of the inner basket.

I am NOT trying to say the weight of the TimeLoc is not a factor to consider.....ANY weight added to the inner hub or input shaft should be considered when working on these machines......but if the weight was a problem, it should show up in a different way than in the breakage of the inner hub. I am VERY concerned about the weight shortening the life of the bearings, (and the bushing), on the inboard side of the clutch basket, but if the TimeLoc system does anything in the way of strength to the inner hub....it should strengthen the hub.....IMO

As I said above, I am not trying to say no problem exists.....I am just trying to ascertain what "could" have caused an inner hub to break. If you still have the broken hub, I would VERY much like to inspect it to see where the breakage occurred, broken spring posts may be the result of a completely different problem than a split inner boss, or a split outer spline.

Thanks for the feedback.

Sorry i meant to show you it and just never did. It was that all the spring post sheared off, it does have the longer bolts, remember this one came straight off keiths 4 cyl bike, and he helped me with the clearance. As for the impact yes i run em in with that and then tighten the last turns with a ratchet. They could have been to tight the legs on the inner hub are just cast (no harm intented) but they arent that strong.I think a billet inner hub would help.

i read mr jade reply and wantee to pass this info on, i looked at pic of lockout and it got 5 bolt holes to mount to inner hub, what i do is use 3 longer bolts to pull down lockout against spring pressure then when i get it down enough where shorter bolts can take several threads, start taking out longer 1`s 1 at a time, this way works for me so i don`t put too much pressure on any bolts and makes it easier when running stiffer springs to get it assembled, might apply here, either way just a tip passed on

this was not on a banshee style it was the mattoon ( my bolts were plenty long) i think after talkin to calvin the weak link is the pressure plate, there are very long legs on the gsxr pressure plate and made of cast, i think the banshee style billet inner hubs will hold up fine. I am going to look it over some more, i could have over tightened it at one point weaking the legs as well who knows.

The main thing i was trying to get across is i like the overall feel and think it could be a good thing when its all figured out.

good tip though frank for stock style with stiff springs.

i haven`t seen anything but pics of the newer 1 your using and didn`t know if the way i do it would apply, i`m sure when they become avaiable i`ll get 1 of the newer type`s and be using it, so you`ll get them tested and proofed,we be waiting,lol

the other two hoodlums at the bottom just kept crackin jokes all day lol

when will this clutch be ready for da public

So this clutch setup would benefit all sized engines not just the huge ones correct?

what ever came of this setup? must not be working very well if all the chatter just stopped!, i thought it looked like a great tuning tool. any one who knows the details postem up

this clutch setup has worked great in certain bikes mostly the huge cc ones and it has helped the 60fts and easied up on breaking tranny parts etc from what ive been told...but i think its best used on just the bigger applications like the 4cylinder bikes out and is now being looked at hard by the aspault guys too help them

Any gains been made on this ...?

ok its been a great year for me at the track . One of the things I have been running and testing is Calvins Timeloc. Dirt and Asphalt. just a few more times out at the tracks and I think we will have everything lined out it is working nicely and does what I thought it would.. the one thing I really like is that it has no static pressure on the arms thus less dynamic change to the actual application of the lockup itself, in other words , if you do the math and end up with a calculated weight on you arms at a certain rpm this is not affected by springs or added resistance to the arms, in the end when the arms reach the pressure plate the pressure is unaffected , I am testing a 6 lug banshee design right now on the pavement, I will keep everyone posted on this

Since Tim has "let the cat out of the bag" about running the Time Loc system, I will try to let out some of the things we have learned. I feel one of the main things that has come to light is that very few people are studying "why" their clutch works well or doesn't work well. I have included a layout print showing a couple of numbers that we originally set the clutch up for, maybe Tim can elaborate on where he ended up on these dimensions.

One of the first things that must be done is to establish the "stack height" which gives you the "arm clearance" measurement that you need to maintain. The following print shows where we designed the arm clearance to be approximately .115 to .120 of an inch, (2.92mm to 3.05mm). On the attached print we call out for a total stack height of 1.950.

I would to try the time loc clutch from CP.

So I just read through all of this and I find it very interesting. Question is, is this something the average Joe would/could benefit from? Or, is it more in line for the hardcore racers/competers? I guess it would come down to $$ for the average Joe.

do you have a diagram that looks like the schematic above that gives directoins on tunig the clutch in ...i'm wanting to try one of these clutches..

lol you will have to find the sweet spot, or we will better yet

that sounds good..